Tool Box
January 14th, 2008If there’s something you want to know about gentoo, post a comment here. I will answer to the best of my ability as to my understanding of what is the cause etc of whatever it is you want.
But with the last two posts being told I’m a tool box (this made me laugh actually), that I’m everything wrong with Gentoo, and basically just being hammered on by the people who I can not identify with in the least anymore because as a user I had respect for developers. Remember everything is a two way street….
So ask and I’ll follow up with the questions with the best answers I have..in the meantime I’ll go back to killing Gentoo single handedly by unknown means to myself.
P.S. This is a standing offer….at which point email would probably be best..@gentoo or @tsunam.org will get me. Just maybe the spam filters will get you 
January 15th, 2008 at 12:13 am
There are those who *do*, those who *bitch*, and some that even do both.
At the end of the day its the *doing*, not the *bitching*, that matters.
As fr me? I am happy with Gentoo and your efforts Joshua.
January 15th, 2008 at 12:43 am
Glorandar,
Thank you that has single handedly made it worth it. It might not seem like much but that is the best kind of thing I’ve seen in a long time. So thank you so much.
January 15th, 2008 at 1:17 am
Josh,
Yeah, I was kinda surprised at all the folks dumping on you.
The users have been crying out for word from the developers on what’s going on. You presented it in mostly a reasonable, cool, measured tone, laying it all out for them. And then they crapped on your head. Way to go, users. Those of you that act that way, that is.
Anyway, don’t let it get to you too much. Aside from some thoughtful posts by dirtyepic, joker, and a couple of other devs in the forums, you’re pretty much the most visible developer with something to say on the subject. Certainly the only one on Planet/Universe, it seems.
I was considering writing something myself, but I don’t know that it will help. The uneducated user community (and not all users are in this category mind you) will see and hear what it wants to. Nothing Gentoo developers can say will get through to these particular (useless) folks. But they do generate all the noise and forum threads . . . they live in their own upset world.
You just stay in your happy place!
PS: And come to SCALE, ja?
January 15th, 2008 at 2:42 am
Hi, I’m one of the “users”. Started using Gentoo 4 months ago, got addicted immidiately, now i’m at the point that i’m experimenting with my first ebuilds, and look how i can help the community. Its a bit strange, I’m more motivated than ever to engage in a community project and then I read about all this crisis and politics stuff.
I went on, read all the historical articles, forum threads from 2004 and so on. Although my newbie point of view might be limited I like the way you comment this. Keep it up. If there is a fork/namechange, I’ll walk with you
January 15th, 2008 at 3:36 am
Dear Tsunam,
please excuse my previous rant, but I was really mad by the way you presented
things. Actually too many topics seem to get mixed up in this far too often.
One is the ineffectiveness of the Gentoo structure (council, trustees) another
the end of the foundation and a third is the question if Daniel should play a
role again.
Gentoo is missing a goal, a mission and a roadmap. Its missing direction. The
council is badly suited to define these. Every discussion there gets lost in
implementation details. Too often, when faced with two choices, none is
selected, since there is a minority opposition to both. This is not a fault of
the people in the council. It is an inherent faw of the structure of Gentoo.
But it results in Gentoo as an organisation to act like a child with ADHS.
There is a need for another strong force inside the Gentoo organisation, that
forces the council to make unpleasant choices when needed. If Gentoo is faced
with a choice between pest and colera, it should decide for one before it gets
effected by both. This is what a CEO does (and they get paid pretty well for
it because it means you need to being an asshole if times get rough and thus
nobody likes the CEO). Of cause one has to take care that the council (the
CTO) is not a slave to the CEO (which many users saw represented by the
trustee in Gentoo, for lack of an better equivalent).
If Daniel proposal includes a way to make the council accountable to take care
of certain things thats a Good Thing(tm). Of cause, this accountability is
only honor-based. These “certain things” should be restricted to
either-or-choices like “either you make sure we will release a 2007.1 CD or we
will announce it to be canceled”. I really like to know the details of Daniels
proposal (like many others I guess). If it has been publicly discussed on
#gentoo-dev, maybe the backlog can also be posted on the gentoo-dev@ mailing
list.
As said, the question if Daniel will take a role in the “new” structure
of Gentoo is independant of the “new” structure itself. However, the actions
by current devs, council and trustees led to the perception that there is even
no acknowledgement there is a problem at all. The result is a lack of trust
and that infamous “90% vote” because Daniel seemed to have at least realized
the problem.
Yours, Björn
P.S.: I urge every dev taking part in the discussion to read what Donnie
Bergholz blogged under the leadership tag. Thats awesome stuff. I also
wholeheartedly recommend reading the book “Agile Project Management” by Jim
Highsmith. If you have questions about these, feel free to email me.
P.P.S.: Just because I dont share your view it doesnt mean Im not thankful for you posting the progress here. I hope this whole thing can be worked out in an constructive way. So: nightmorph++
January 15th, 2008 at 3:59 am
Whenever a structure fails people claim that a “strong leader” is needed. Then after a while people start bitching because of the new leader’s decisions.
Making Gentoo a dictatorship again does not suit a community based distro at all, it might work for companies but that’s it. Gentoo is not a company, it’s not about maximizing profit.
The current council and the trustees seem to have failed to get the job done. Fine. Find new people to do the work and see whether the structure needs finetuning. But don’t be naive and just run to the next guy who says that he should run the show.
The PR department of Gentoo needs to get to work, too, the website needs an update badly and there should be more regular news as well as the good old newsletter, but those are not things “a strong leader” can fix: Someone needs to be able to do the work and introducing a new dictator would just bring more developer drain I think, because people will not like that structure or his decisions.
Oh and btw. Tsunam, thanks for your posts that elaborated some of the structures, it’s appreciated a lot!
January 15th, 2008 at 4:05 am
Hello, I’m a Gentoo user since version 1.2. Although it’s written on almost every opinion about this “crisis”, I believe people don’t really get the difference between the technical Gentoo Council and the legal Gentoo Foundation, fomenting confusion. And we really, really should make a clear separation between the two.
I don’t believe there ever was a crisis with the technical side of Gentoo, things are flowing as they used to, not in a perfect way of course, but also not in a bad way. It’s the Gentoo way. Developers do their job, users help them and bike them as it always happened.
On the other hand, there seems to be a real crisis with the Gentoo Foundation and I really would like to hear a response to a few questions, some raised by Daniel Robbins in his blog (http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/and-it-gets-worse.html). I’m sorry if it sounds like bikering, but I’m just a concerned user. I’m not on any side of the political debate here. The questions are:
1. What happened to the Gentoo trustees to make them “lose” the Gentoo Foundation on a legal basis?
2. Why is Daniel Robbins “still listed as President of the Gentoo Foundation according to the State of New Mexico”?
3. How can we trust the Gentoo trustees now?
The last question is very important. The Gentoo userbase is somewhat concerned with this and sees Daniel Robbins as a savior to end all problems, which I disagree. So, if we can’t trust the Gentoo trustees to maintain the legal basis of the Gentoo Foundation, who can we trust?
Ending this, I would like to thank you, Joshua, for your time and I’d like to say sorry for all the bad things that have been told to you. It seems you’re the only one around, so you take all the heat, unfortunately.
January 15th, 2008 at 4:52 am
Tsunam give us serious reasons you don’t want Robbins back…
January 15th, 2008 at 4:57 am
I have to commend you for keeping the negative comments up along with the positive ones. When I read some blogs in this ordeal (drobbins), I see something like 70 out of 70 comments in favor of the post. That is unheard of in a gentoo-related topic, and screams comment moderation in favor of the poster.
Now, with that said, people calling you a tool box just don’t know what they are talking about.. Leave the negative comments up, but ignore the flagrant ones.
January 15th, 2008 at 5:13 am
For me this all was just a hype because of some Lack in Management. I hope that all this will have show that Management-Tasks need to be done and that this will not happen again.
I trust the Gentoo trustees more that they have learned from this issue than trust drobbins that he will fix in a way good for gentoo.
Why did he go the second Time and not learn to live with his new role just to be part of gentoo?
If he only wants to be part if he is the “King” it is a ego-trip only.
sorry for my lack in English but I hope you understand the meaning.
January 15th, 2008 at 5:18 am
cshield, shit hitting the fan now?
I think forum poll (yes the one that locked) was pretty much meaningful for how many users support Robbins, so i dont think he has any reason to delete a single comment…
January 15th, 2008 at 6:18 am
Gentoo is suffering from Debian Syndrome. Strong leadership and sea change are exactly what the project needs at the moment. The status quo has been going on since 2005 from what I remember, and it is driving away more and more devs and making Gentoo less and less relevant.
And yes, you are a tool box for taking cheap shots at the man who made this project and who has the ability to fix it.
January 15th, 2008 at 6:46 am
@Constantine
Oh, I agree, he shouldn’t have any reason if the support is there.. My concern is that such an offer to “run gentoo” should be met with an attitude of full disclosure.
January 15th, 2008 at 10:19 am
@cshields:
Indeed, Daniel’s been censoring my comments. I didn’t even say anything one way or the other — I just respectfully pointed out that he really should have gone to the developers first; he should have written a formal letter to the trustees, rather than just post to his blog and tell all the users to email trustees@g.o out of the blue.
Guess that kind of respectful, gentle correction couldn’t fit in with all the pro-Daniel support in the comments.
Also, it is pretty funny to see the disrespectful, wild-assed-conspiracy-theorists on Josh’s blog making (further) asses out of themselves. Sort of like free entertainment!
January 15th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I was going to make a comment the other day, but then that bad behaviour plugin stopped me. Now I don’t even feel like saying it anymore. I am sick of the “conspiracy theorists” on *both* sides. If you think there is only one side - go read through the -core thread again and look at all the bitches screaming ZOMG HE WANTS TO RULE OVER MEEEEE. I AM SUPPOSED TO BE FREE THIS IS A VOLUNTEER BASED PROJECT STOP TRYING TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO.
grow up.
January 15th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Will all the failed managers please leave gentoo alone and go manage something else!
January 16th, 2008 at 1:05 am
moveon, failed managers leaving wont help you, if there are no capable manager replacing them. I think one of the major problems gentoo has right now is attracting capable administrators (e.g. people doing paperwork, pr, gwn, communication).
January 16th, 2008 at 3:11 am
The main problem in Gentoo is people having fun with endoftheworld stuff.
There aren’t failures beside in the US post offices from what I could read so far.
Lots of misdirection about vocal and passionate users and that.
You may ask us and we’ll reply, but if you don’t like the answers before digging a bit QUIT spreading ill information. Trust us please.
January 16th, 2008 at 4:04 am
@lu_zero: Its not that users think “ZOMG! gentoo is dead because there is no foundation!!1!”. I, and many gentoo users i talk to, are fearing gentoo to be decaying into ambitionless irrelevance. I think pretty much everyone know by now, that the end of the foundaton in itself is not to critical. Its more the stuff that surrounds it, like that the number of trustees fell and fell and nobody really gave a sh**. Even if the “trustees-model” was flawed, nobody cared for it for years …
January 17th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Sorry. That was not clear. My expression ‘failed managers’ is a reference to the managers trying to take over gentoo as they apparently have free time on their hands.
At a fundamental level, gentoo is working very well, even if some paperwork was screwed up. I’m for LESS conventional management in gentoo.
The home page should just carry the planet feed instead of newsletters. This would be more insteresting and dynamic, and more representative of gentoo.
January 17th, 2008 at 2:35 am
@moveon:
No, Planet is Planet. It’s supposed to be a separate resource, on its own server, etc. Planet is not always Gentoo news, the way GWNs and GLSAs are. It’s also not necessarily representative of Gentoo as a whole; we get some interesting posts on Planet from time to time.
I am glad to see that you’re one of the few users who recognize that on the technical side, the side most folks actually deal with on a day to day basis in their systems, the side that actually affects them . . . yeah, we’re just fine. Too many users are running around like chickens with their heads cut off, not noticing that the actual software on their machines is still workin’. Commits are still bein’ made. The sky is not falling, etc.
February 20th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
I have to admit I don’t know much about who does what whether legal or technical, but what I can say is that Gentoo has made brilliant progress in the last few years. I first came to it in about 2000 to use as router distro and have been using it as primary system for about 4 or 5 years now and it just keeps getting better and better. I’m not sure how much of this is down to my own learning but Gentoo installation and maintenance certainly seems to be getting smoother and smoother. I’m now running ~amd64 and I’m quite sure that 5 years ago you had more trouble with the stable tree than today with ~…
Essentially, receiving Mails in Outlook 2k at work causes far more trouble than single-handedly administrating 4 completely different Gentoo systems spread across 4 cities in 2 countries…
So cheers you all, and I’ll try to contribute a bit more as well